22 Comments

Share yours!

1. 
   
   

   Visit My Website

   January 11, 2010

   Permalink

   1 Matt @ The Church of No People said:
   

   Yeah, I tend to think there are ‘levels’ of punishment, despite there being no scripture to support that. I just don’t see an infinite God using a rubber stamp on everyone in this one instance. What would he be trying to do? Save time?

2. 
   
   

   Visit My Website

   January 11, 2010

   Permalink

   2 bondChristian said:
   

   First off, this cartoon reminded me of a line from Dill Scallion. Dill, a school bus driver, says (into the camera), “It makes it kinda hard to be pro-life driving this bus.” Love that line.

   Anyway, yes, I think there will be different judgment for different people. If God’s grace is not covering someone, they they receive what’s fair… and eye for an eye (or something like that). Scary really… but maybe it’s more a motivator to spread grace than wait in the bushes to watch the judgment.

   -Marshall Jones Jr.

3. 
   
   

   Visit My Website

   January 11, 2010

   Permalink

   3 Michael said:
   

   reminds me of the book of Job. He consistently notices how the unrighteous seem blessed while he is suffering. But then he says, “They are exalted a little while, and then are gone; they are brought low and gathered up like all the others.”

4. 
   
   

   Visit My Website

   January 11, 2010

   Permalink

   4 Jay said:
   

   Well, when you start getting into the whole “bad people” issue, you’re starting to slouch towards legalism and religion. I saw a video with Mark Driscoll where he was saying that there’s no such thing as “good people” and “bad people.” He said God looks down from heaven and sees Jesus Christ on one side and everybody else on the other.

   Remember the thief who Jesus promised would be in paradise in Luke 23:43. I’m sure he was a “bad” person but at that point it didn’t matter.

5. 
   
   

   Visit My Website

   January 11, 2010

   Permalink

   5 Curtis Honeycutt said:
   

   Yeah, hopefully the talking heads on Fox News will get what’s coming to them.

6. 
   
   

   Visit My Website

   January 11, 2010

   Permalink

   6 Sarah C said:
   

   I don’t think so. The reason is, is because I firmly believe that justice is NOT punishment. Justice, true justice is about restoration, for both victim and victimizer.

   An interesting ditty – English in the only language in which the words “justice” and “righteousness” are separate. In most languages, including Greek and Hebrew, justice and righteousness are represented by the same word. That puts perspective, for me, on what kind of justice God desires.

7. 
   
   

   Visit My Website

   January 11, 2010

   Permalink

   7 Nick said:
   

   As I was praying this morning, I thanked God for his mercy in my stupidity. Areas where I should have experienced his punishment or the punishment of the world, I never did.

   Its tough to remember that God expresses that same mercy to people who I think should face his punishment as well. Though I see their sin on the outside, I often have no idea how God is working in their heart on the inside. I am not too often thankful for the mercy of God in other people’s lives as much as I am for it in my own life.

   I know God does avenge those who have been wronged, and there are people I know that have done some pretty evil stuff without repentance, so how God deals with them & to what extent, I don’t know. I better just keep my eyes on myself, so I don’t get myself in trouble

8. 
   
   

   Visit My Website

   January 11, 2010

   Permalink

   8 Bryan said:
   

   This is an interesting question. I believe in God and have a great love for him, but I self admit I don’t pray enough, partly because I honestly don’t know if praying does anything. Reason why I say that is because through my short life on this planet, I have come to determine I don’t really believe in divine intervention. I don’t believe because 1 person or 1 million people prays for help, that God comes to them with a solution and saves the day. The only litmus test I need to prove that is the Holocaust. Another litmus test is an 8 year old girl getting raped by her father every night. She cries, pleas with God to help her, prays for her father to stop raping her, and he continues this until he kills her. Where was God there? Where was God during an entire extermination of a race? I don’t believe God has the “power” to intervene..and if he does, I don’t understand the logic involved.

   So with all that said, I believe we are put on this planet and given the tools for life. If we use them for good, fantastic. If we use them for evil, so be it. Only upon our exit from this earth are we judged on our life. Or so I hope that is the case. Are there “levels” of punishment. Maybe not. Could be a simply: Take Route A for Heaven, take Route B for Hell.

9. 
   
   

   Visit My Website

   January 11, 2010

   Permalink

   9 Dave Wilson said:
   

   Seems like God is in a no-win position when it comes to judgment. If it’s swift, he’s accused of being unloving and vengeful. If judgment is delayed, He’s portrayed as unjust or arbitrary.

   Jesus paid the price for my sins. But hypocrite that I am, I often want others to pay for their own sins.

   Thanks for the great question Brad,
   Dave

10. 
    
    

    Visit My Website

    January 11, 2010

    Permalink

    10 Bill (cycleguy) said:
    

    I know there is a theological discussion on degrees in hell. I go around that with one statement: anyone without Christ is lost and will spend eternity in hell. That in itself will be enough punishment in itself. But I do believe hell is a place of torment. P.S. I do like the cartoon though.

11. 
    
    

    Visit My Website

    January 11, 2010

    Permalink

    11 Bryan said:
    

    So I have to ask, not having the same biblical knowledge as others in this thread…but what happened to the people and their souls prior to Jesus Christ, like in the dinosaur age? Did they go to heaven or hell, were they exempt or what?

12. 
    
    

    Visit My Website

    January 11, 2010

    Permalink

    12 Spatulahandle said:
    

    Hi, I believe that here on earth people get away with far more than we know. God is the only one who knows our every action.

    I need prayers. My ex husband, who I have three children with, also has three children with his now ex girlfriend. The ex girlfriend is now pregnant with their fourth child and because he doesn’t want his new girlfriend to know he wants her to “Take care of the problem” as he puts it. He wants her to have an abortion. She has chosen to keep the baby, but he keeps hounding her to get rid of it. My children and her children see each other a few times a month. When she comes over I hear about everything he is doing, that she continues to put up with. When he comes to visit my kids he talks about her and calls her nasty names. I am not good at dealing with stress and end up having anxiety attacks when she or leaves. I am at a point where I want to tell them I don’t want to hear anymore about what goes on between the two of them. I would like them to just leave me out of it, but there are three children involved that aren’t being taken care of properly and I can’t just walk away from it. The State has been called to investigate the mother and other things that have gone on and they never do anything about what is going on. I am most afraid for the kids, because they are the ones suffering.
    So please pray for these kids their names are Cody, Courtney, and Christopher; and for their parents and the unborn child.

13. 
    
    

    Visit My Website

    January 11, 2010

    Permalink

    13 Bryan said:
    

    @spatulahandle’s comment above…

    that is an exact example of my question way above. I think its good natured to say a prayer and hope it really helps, but will the prayers themselves do anything? I am just speaking for myself personally on that…I DO hope spatulahandle can get her situation taken care of and her prayers are answered. I guess if knowing someone is praying for you calms you down..then there is definitely a positive that comes from it.

    but my question is…if its an ex gf and they are not married…she can do what she wants with the baby and he has no say in the matter, even if its his kid. This ex-husband sounds like a real winner too.

    I am sorry to hear about your situation.

14. 
    
    

    Visit My Website

    January 11, 2010

    Permalink

    14 Faye said:
    

    @Bryan, you ask, “will the prayers themselves do anything?” and my answer is, “No.”

    In my experience and from study, I even cringe when people say, “prayer changes things”. Not to be legalistic, but it’s God who changes things and He does that from His seat of sovereignty and omniscience.

    See in this situation, my belief is that He knows this man and woman. He knows that unborn baby and He knows the other children. He knows @spatulahandle’s heart and motives and struggles as she asks for His intervention. You say you don’t believe in that intervention. I believe God does answer every single prayer. Sometimes the answer to what a person asks is “No.” Do I understand that? Nope. Can’t even say that I like it. But, it’s just like a parent who tells their child no when asked for something. Knowing what they know, their answer can’t be affirmative.

    Why the Holocaust? Why the child raped and killed? Why do people get away with murder? I have no answers outside of saying that God IS sovereign. He knows all the answers and the outcomes. And this is my thought on me understanding any of those answers — If I could understand God’s decisions in those or any matters, then I would be Him. I don’t think our brains are wired to be able to understand and still function.

    I hope you find peace in your search for truth and understanding. Hope I haven’t confused you further, too!

15. 
    
    

    Visit My Website

    January 11, 2010

    Permalink

    15 Bryan said:
    

    Hi Faye,

    Thanks for responding, I appreciate it.

    I think what REALLY bothers me is someone has a tragedy or an event happen, so they pray, pray, pray, and pray…maybe even get communities involved and the result, maybe by coincidence, is they get the answer they want. Was their prayer really “answered” by God and he stepped in to help that individual, or was it chance that stepped in to provide the right answer. Maybe the scenario was setup in a way that the chances were more likely they would get the right answer versus the wrong one.

    So when they get the right answer…they praise God and Jesus thanking him for his divine intervention for something that may be trivial to you and me…yet again in my other example..some brutal evil thoughtless crime is committed against a baby 3 doors down, for a similar family who had been praying for a year..yet their prayers were not answered…if we are talking specifically about God stepping in to “act” on ones prayers.

    Does God, himself, “punish” people in the present (while alive). Example, if a man cheats on his wife, will he cause the wife pain in order to punish the husband? Will a child suffer because of his/her parents actions?

16. 
    
    

    Visit My Website

    January 11, 2010

    Permalink

    16 Faye said:
    

    @Bryan, Aha! I do have a scriptural answer for the last part! Several scriptures talk of not punishing the father for the child’s sin and vice versa. Will a child suffer for a parent’s actions? Of course. I mean, if Dad pulls out in front of a Mack truck and gets hit, will the child in the back seat be injured? Most likely. The gambler loses all his money in the slot machines and can’t buy food for the family, do the children suffer? Sure they do.

    In the instance of cheating hubby, will the wife be caused pain to punish the husband? I think it’s not God punishing the man if the wife gets AIDS from her cheater-hubs. It’s a natural consequence of his decision. I suffered as a result of my ex-husband’s choices in that arena — emotionally and physically. I don’t think that was God. Every choice we make has a consequence and sometimes the choices lap over onto others around us.

    Ephesians 2:8 says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;” Now, there are those who say that the “gift” is grace. I believe the “gift” is faith. I know of people like you who ask these questions and truly struggle deep down with understanding. Then there’s me who is a skeptic about everything except God. When it comes to Him, to me, it’s just that simple and I believe in faith.

    In your example about answered prayer, I simply don’t believe in chance. I believe that God does answer those prayers and acts in the situations. Again, He does so sovereignly.

17. 
    
    

    Visit My Website

    January 11, 2010

    Permalink

    17 Brad Ruggles said:
    

    Wow, I honestly didn’t expect this post to generate such deep conversation! That’s what I love about blogging.

    Bryan, you’re asking some great questions that a lot of us struggle with (myself included). There are plenty of answers in the Bible about things like what happened to people who died before Jesus (good explanation here) but the bigger question behind your questions I think is what do we do with all of our doubts? When I pray, how do I know God is listening? And if He IS listening, how do I know He’ll even do anything?

    Some people, like Faye, are confident in their relationship with God and have experienced personal answers to prayer but everyone doubts from time to time. One of my favorite people in the Bible is David (as in “David & Goliath”), author of the book of Psalms. God called him “…a man after my own heart” and yet he wrote Psalms like this:

    “O LORD, why do you stand so far away? Why do you hide when I need you the most?” (Psalms 10:1).

    And then there are whole chapters in the Psalms like Psalm 77 – “Has the Lord rejected me forever? Will he never again show me favor? Is his unfailing love gone forever? Have his promises permanently failed? Has God forgotten to be kind? Has he slammed the door on his compassion?”

    I love that God accepts us doubts and all. Do I have the answers to why bad things happen to good people? No. I can’t even begin to understand why some things happen but I have the faith and assurance that God is ultimately in control – even if that means that things happen that I can’t understand.

    My faith allows me to believe that one day I’ll be able to see things clearer on the other side. And yes, I do believe that God is a God of justice and that, one day, everyone will answer for the wrong that they have done. Those who have hurt others will receive the reward for their behaviors. I also believe that those who have been hurt wrongfully here on earth will be healed and whole in Heaven.

    But in between the answers above and what you read in the Bible are going to be a whole lotta doubts. Just know that those doubts and questions are ok.

18. 
    
    

    Visit My Website

    January 11, 2010

    Permalink

    18 Faye said:
    

    Oh, yeah, Brad. Doubts are always there in some form or another.

    My faith is simple, yet at times, I wonder if God is right there, if He’s listening, if He cares. And like you, I am amazed that He loves me in spite of all that. I’m glad you posted this today, and Bryan, I’m very glad that you have shared today, too.

19. 
    
    

    Visit My Website

    January 11, 2010

    Permalink

    19 Shellie (baylormum) said:
    

    Wow, Brad, you take a few weeks off & come back with heavy hitting questions! It’s times like this when I feel inadequate to even share my thoughts! Although, I sometimes wish more evil on someone, I think of the times when my sins seemed so huge, I couldn’t figure out why God didn’t punish me. Is it the faith I have? Is it that someone else did worse things than me? I don’t know. I’m not willing to gamble on things I know to be true for me. I liked Dave Wilson’s observation that Christ died for my sins, but yet we want others to pay for their own misdeeds. Why should I think like that. Who says at what level each sin is? I don’t recall seeing a point system anywhere in the Bible!

20. 
    
    

    Visit My Website

    January 12, 2010

    Permalink

    20 Bryan said:
    

    Thanks for the responses Faye and Brad. Those are great explanations (though I am not sure I 100% agree, but that has more do with me struggling to understand more so then whether its true or false).

    So can step back to my original comment and simply ask if either of you believe in Divine Intervention?

21. 
    
    

    Visit My Website

    January 12, 2010

    Permalink

    21 Brad Ruggles said:
    

    Bryan – Yes I do. Keep in mind that we’re looking at spiritual things through an analytical skeptic’s eye so what I call Divine Intervention others may call coincidence or fate. I just know in my life I have seen God’s hand at work so many times.

    It all goes back to your basic beliefs of who God really is.

    Is He a deity that is distant and removed from us mortals?
    Or is he actively involved in our world?
    And if He is involved in our world, how much influence can/does He have if he created us with free will?
    If we have free will, can’t we ultimately choose a different destiny than one that He divinely chose for us?

    Those are all very complex questions that could be talked through for hours.

    Here’s my nutshell opinion: I believe God is engaged and involved in his creation but allows us the free will to choose and make our own destiny. Just like a parent would have plans for their children, I believe that God has plans for our lives (Jer. 29:11). But, like children often do, we choose our own way that doesn’t always allow us to experience the best in life.

    God graciously allows us to trip and fall as we learn from our mistakes but again, like a parent, will sometimes step in to intervene on our behalf (much like a parent who will bail a child out of jail or help them when they’re going through a rough spot).

22. 
    
    

    Visit My Website

    January 12, 2010

    Permalink

    22 Bryan said:
    

    I definitely agree with this statement

    God graciously allows us to trip and fall as we learn from our mistakes but again, like a parent, will sometimes step in to intervene on our behalf (much like a parent who will bail a child out of jail or help them when they’re going through a rough spot).

    I guess what I need to understand is that God doesn’t apply a level of “pain” to individuals.

    He may very well look at someone stubbing their toe on a curb as the same “pain” as a young girl being violently raped. Sounds horrible, but in his eyes in one in the same? yes? Which may explain why he steps in to help certain people or I should say people feel he has stepped in to help, and others don’t feel his prescence, regardless of quantity or quality of their prayers.

    A mortal mind..that is a very tough pill to swallow and comprehend.

    If someone violently hurts or kills my child, I am not even sure the hand of God could prevent me from reacting accordingly. Maybe he would want me to do what I have to do, or maybe he wouldn’t want me to react at all? (though of course naturally any moral human being would react).

    just more questions to ponder.